Minutes of the All Party Group for Reserve Forces and Cadets Meeting 7th July 2010 – Committee Room 16

Guest Speakers: Andrew Robathan – (Parliamentary Under Secretary for Armed Forces) and Major General Greg Smith (ACDS Reserves and Cadets)

Members Present:

Julian Brazier MP Chairman

Madeleine Moon MP Vice-Chairman

Mark Francois MP

James Gray MP

Phil Hollobone MP

Penny Mordaunt MP

Mark Pritchard MP

Bob Stewart MP

Desmond Swayne MP

Joan Walley MP

Lord Rogan

Viscount Slim

Outside Attendees:

Commodore Bob Mansergh Director of Reserves Forces and Cadets

Colonel George Butler

John McCullagh AH Youth and Cadets

Major Matt Lewis

Lt RN Paul Thomson

Paul Beaver

Julian Radcliffe Sponsor

Clerks:

Colonel Hugh Purcell Honorary Clerk

Miss Kate Tattersall PA to Colonel Purcell

Chairman’s Opening Remarks

The Chairman welcomed all to the meeting before introducing the new Minister for the Armed Forces, Andrew Robathan MP, and Major General Greg Smith the new ACDS R&C and a Rifleman, to the members. He also thanked the Minister for providing this early opportunity to engage with him.

The Minister announced that he was particularly delighted to be present. Like the CDS, he was former Cadet and before that a Scout and yesterday he had attended a Cadet 150 national celebration, a parade of 2,000 Cadets down the Mall including a Red Arrows fly past. He emphasised the reliance of the Armed Forces on cadets to connect with the nation and he paid tribute to the 25 thousand Adult Volunteers who supported them. It was important to ensure that the quality of the cadet experience remained during these hard financial times and that the balance was got right between risk and adventure, which would need a change in H&S culture. He said cadets would play a big part in the ‘Big Society’ and future national citizenship service and that HRH The Prince of Wales was supporting Youth United, which we would hear more of in the coming months.

He reported that since 2003, 23 Reservists had died on operations and over 30 had received life-changing injuries. Currently, over 1,400 were mobilised, preparing to deploy or recovering and he gave the following details: 628 were in Afghanistan; 24 in Iraq; 51 were supporting counter terrorism and anti-piracy; 236 were in Cyprus and 2175 were in Full Time Reserve Service both in the UK and around the world.

Turning to the SDSR, he noted that it could be delayed no longer, it was 12 years since the last review and ‘no change’ was not an option. The Armed Forces needed to reorganise into more efficient structures and the SDSR would examine best to support regulars with reserves and utilise their capabilities to provide security. He asked whether the range of their skills could be used more effectively, being aware that after the Review of Reserves there was a danger of review fatigue.

The Chairman then introduced Commodore Bob Mansergh, Hd of RF&C and the deputy to ACDS.

Desmond Swayne MP said he was told once that the Armed Forces had no interest in cadets from a recruiting point of view, but at the last meeting he had been given an indication that they now saw them as useful in terms of recruiting as an addition to those from the OTCs, and was this correct?

The Minister replied that approximately 20 to 25% of recruits to Armed Forces claimed some form of Cadet experience, but they were not primarily a recruiting tool. They provided a useful youth organisation, combining adventure, excitement, opportunity and challenge that kept young people off the streets, and the wish was to put them into a wider youth framework. MoD remained interested in cadets, there were already several successful programmes such as having a cadet organisation in a state school, and he hoped that the advent of the Big Society would infect them with the desire to join the Forces.

James Gray MP said that he remembered from a previous meeting re the Review of Reserves that one decision was to use their specialist skills more. He asked if the principles of the Review would be incorporated into the SDSR, or was it starting from scratch.

Hd RF&C replied that the report following the Review of Reserves contained 10 top-level recommendations and a short description on implementation. Importantly for the first time the Proposition for the volunteer reservist was articulated and all of this made for a good policy base. Detailed recommendations underlay this, some about better management of Reserve Forces, and implementation work was ongoing. There was progress, but some recommendations could not be delivered due to a lack of resource. In short, a lot of the good thinking from the review was being taken into SDSR and it was not starting from scratch. The Minister agreed and stated that a TA modelled on the Cold War was inappropriate and everything was ‘up for grabs’.

Lord Rogan stated that he had just returned from Cyprus where he had visited 46 Signals Regiment as their Honorary Colonel. He thought they were in an operational role very well suited to the TA. He asked about current numbers in the OTC and its future, ACDS said he did not know the answer to the former and Land Forces were reviewing the latter. The Chairman said that that transferring capabilities across to the Reserves as happens in our sister countries could save money, to which the Minister responded that he had ‘read his paper’.

Bob Stewart MP asked whether the Reserve Forces including the TA made up 10% of the forces in Afghanistan and would this influence the SDSR. One could see the TA getting bigger in these cost conscious days but it was questionable whether ending up designed as a Reserve Pool for the Regular Army was a sensible way to go.

Hd RF&C replied that the Strategic Review of Reserves had identified three areas where Reserve Forces might contribute:

1) Meet the requirement for Maximum Effort

2) Meet the requirement for Niche Skills

3) Connect to the Nation, an element of resilience and footprint

He stated that the current figure was 7% in Afghanistan, the future a structure needed to provide value for money for defence, meanwhile Regular Forces were at full manning.

It was suggested that there was a need to design a force that would not cause resentment among the officers when the Regulars ‘cherry picked’ from its junior ranks which were needed more (those below Captain and Staff Sergeant). There was also a need to ensure senior TA officers had the opportunity to gain operational experience so that there would be no resentment regarding the knowledge and experience of the troops when they returned from theatre.

The Minister reported that units such as field hospitals did immensely good work, and it was quite right that they would want more junior ranks, but this was not exclusive. One issue was some TA came back from Afghanistan having had amazing experiences during their six months and thought that they could not gain anything else from being in the TA.

Jason McCarty introduced himself as a new MP and a former Air Cadet, who had spend 10 years in the RAF. He asked whether there was any scope of involving the cadets in National Citizen Service and thus have access to its funding.

The Minister thought this a very good point, but MoD was not primarily responsible for the National Citizen Service. He knew that aspects were being worked on, but he was unsure how far cadets should be involved. Hd RF&C added that cadet service might play a part in citizenship, that there were no immediate answers; MoD was also looking at whether university officers could be dovetailed with national citizen activities.

Keith Mans thought there should be a system that enabled cadets at age 18 to have stronger links with the TA and other volunteer reserves and that this would also offer opportunities to any who were unemployed. He also said that in deciding the level of, and the split between, formed units and specialists and the money that was spent on them, it was important to look at the short and the long-term effects.

The Minister thought the point a good one and that the MoD might look at ensuring cadets had all the information regarding their local reserves. However, one of the strengths of the cadet movement was it was not perceived as an armed body of men. He then said that after WW1 there was a Territorial Army and that he was aware today of the ‘disdain’ some senior officers had for the reserves and that they could make easy savings. This would not prejudice the SDSR. Hd RF&C said there was no proper linkage between cadets and reserves and he was aware that some regulars viewed cadets and reserves as slightly surplus to requirement. There was, however, a need to keep the Reserves on side and to understand their value. ACDS stated that cadets typically went on to higher education and then employment and the MoD had looked at whether they could go on to join the Reserves.

The Chairman made the point that it was not only cadets that join the Reserves, but also ex regulars and why was it that the RN had retained four times as many pilots in its Reserves as the RAF. The RAF had 26 Reserve pilots, the RN had over 100, and systems were needed to join the bits up.

Mark Pritchard MP asked that with the SDSR and advent of the National Citizen Service whether the financial structure of the cadet forces could be looked at, as some units (Sea Cadets) were registered charities in their own right and charitable status might be advantageous.

Hd RF&C replied that the issue of how cadets were organized and run was being looked at and a view should be taken after the SDSR, hopefully to link in a timely manner with the policies on societal transformation and National Citizen Service. There were some interesting options to look at but there was caution about the Sea Cadets as they sometimes spent 2 out of their 4 weekends collecting money and their charitable status could undermine what they were about.

Joan Walley MP explained that a TA Army building in Cobridge was in the middle of a very deprived area and that it was hugely important to local social cohesion as different communities used it for a variety of things. She asked that when looking at future lay down, the SDSR take into account the contribution the building, the cadets and the reserves made, not only to the Forces but also to the local community. There should be a tick sheet in the SDSR that included the importance of the wider contribution they make within marginalized communities.

Hd RF&C replied that this was a part of what was wanted for the future, the footprint of the reserves and cadets was essential to connecting with the nation and MoD needed to find a way to preserve this. There was a lot of estate that cost a lot of money to maintain and the Review of Reserves concluded it needed to be rationalized and modernized. It was hoped that one of the outcomes of the SDSR would be the opportunity to do this and the way was through the RFCAs who managed and understood the estate and how best to use it. The Minister agreed before reinforcing the point that cadets provided opportunities to escape those deprived areas. He mentioned Shaun Bailey, who was brought up on a council estate and who now runs a children’s charity. Shaun was a firm believer in the cadet movement and that it could help this cause; it was something everyone needed to understand. Regarding footprint, he was well aware of the need to keep the forces in the public eye, as there had been a growing disconnect with the population at large, and the ‘high’ today, arising from operations in Afghanistan, might not last.

Joan Walley MP reiterated that lobbying for footprint needed to carry on, especially when it came to areas such as Stoke on Trent, where it was difficult to establish a footprint. She invited the Minister and ACDS to visit Cobridge, which she recommended as a model.

Colonel Hugh Purcell, asked to comment as Chief Executive GL RFCA, said he could not pre-judge the SDSR, but there was the opportunity to continue ‘sweating the assets’ to the benefit of the wider community as well as commercially (WMI), while at the same time reducing the running cost to Defence, as income came from elsewhere.

Mark Pritchard MP asked if the age restrictions for reserve service could be looked at, as for example, someone aged 45 working for an international bank could be useful in the intelligence corps, or the like.

Hd RF&C said that after WW2 the Reserve Forces were a sort of club for those who had served in the war, but there was now scope for a number of areas to benefit from sideways entry, as they would not necessarily be involved in the front line. The Minister agreed that there was scope and flexibility within the Armed Forces. ACDS said the joining age was 35, but it varied for some skilled people, and the leaving age was 55, but it was possible to extend it. Julian Radcliffe agreed that there was no upper age limit for specialists adding that there was the ability to take any specialist into uniform at the drop of a hat and one of the big gaps was in soft capabilities e.g., lawyers and bankers, who were not properly organized anywhere in the military.

Jo Walley had heard examples where reservists had wanted to go to Iraq, but had been prevented by their employer, such as NHS hospital trusts and the situation needed to be investigated. ACDS replied that this was the case in ‘the early days’, but not now. The Minister agreed, saying that the NHS now recognized that their professionals gained valuable experience for their clinical needs in theatres such as Afghanistan and the NHS benefited.

Viscount Slim was concerned that some reservists were unable to go back to their original jobs and he reiterated that the country could not do without the Reserve Forces.

The Chairman reported that the biggest complaint he had received regarding the Review of Reserves was it contained nothing about what motivates an officer to make the sacrifices involved in serving as a volunteer reservist officer.

The Chairman closed the meeting by thanking the Minister for coming just a few weeks into his new job, he also thanked ACDS and Hd RF&C for attending.

Colonel (Retd.) Hugh Purcell OBE DL, Honorary Clerk to the APGRF&C.

Post meeting note: Since the meeting one further Reservist has passed away bring the total to 24 Reservists killed on operations since 2003.